Donald J Horowitz: What I want to do is ask you an overall assessment, if you will, of ICTR and how if you were building, if, if unfortunately we needed to have another tribunal, ad hoc tribunal, or perhaps we shouldn’t have (___), ad hoc tribunals. We should only have a permanent tribunal, and I’ll ask you about that.
DJH: How would you design it?
(___), thank you for the question because you see, if you look also the design of the International Criminal Court . . .
. . . look the importance that they give to people working there. Everything is in due to have one court, one people, consultation with people in, in the rules of the ICC, International Criminal Court. So, what I would do apart the, the, the, mean, the, the, the more visible part which are the judgments, but give importance to people. Give to . . .
DJH: The people in the system.
The, yeah, the staff members, the people working there. Let them to be motivated. Let them to, to, to work. To, you know, you have to motivate people. You have to recognize people. You cannot talk to impress people. Nobody care to be impressed. Nobody go to a meeting to be impressed by whom. What do you want to impress?
You just, we are together. We are colleagues. Motivate them. Recognize what they’re doing and you will see the work will increase in term of quality as you were saying, Judge. The quality can be increased only if you motivate people.
DJH: And you must give them the tools.
You know, the tools that I have at that time was a box of paper, I mean a box. I didn’t have even a desk. I was buying my pen. And we did the program.
The tools, you know the tools are here in the mind; and, and the honesty, how you use those tools because you can have the money that you want if you are unhappy or if you see injustice and nobody lift a finger for that injustice, as it happens here regularly.
You, I don’t think we can achieve much. We have to give importance to the people.
The social dimension of ICTR.
DJH: Mm-hmm. Now let’s talk about the people, you’ve talked about the people inside the system.
DJH: What about the people who are, you’re supposed to be serving, the victims, perhaps the witnesses, and also making sure that the defendants, the people who are charged get the fair trial. And you’ve talked a fair bit about that. Okay.
Note: Gap in Interview (Approx. 30 seconds in duration.) Gaps occurred due to interruptions during the interview, technical issues, or corrupted data files.
The issue for me is very often when we look an organization, we want to reform the organization, to reorganize, reorganize the, reorganize the organization from the top to the bottom. For me this is wrong. We should start from the bottom to the top. We have to recognize our people, our colleagues from the cleaners to everybody. It will make a team out of that.
If you have the judge just living like a semi-god, I don’t think that is anymore of a, actuality – maybe Greece before but not now. So we have really to, to look from the bottom to the top. That is really what I believe should be done.
And I believe you give morality, you put morality in these rules of law, as people say. When you have morality in the rule of law, you become a rule of justice where everybody has access. Everybody will feel satisfied. Everybody will do a better job. The quality will improve. That is what I strongly believe.
And if I was the Registrar, this what I was going to do – call everybody, discuss with everybody, consult everybody and find out solutions. To stay close in the torre of, ivory torre, I don’t know, I don’t know in English how to, to say, but I mean to be just separate from the reality; for me this is a, a nonsense. I don’t talk about the Registrar here in general.
So that is the way that I see things. I see my colleagues how they talk and so on. And I think that is how I would like to do, and that is why the mobility is for me is, is something – I will use it for sure. I will go more than what has been delegated to me. There we have to stop. It’s okay but at least I will try.